Conversation between Genevieve Louw and Glenda Harper (nee Kemp).
Glenda is represented by bold text.
My first years were by the sea, because I was born in
Cape Town and then Johannesburg for a little bit and then Swartruggens.
I remember seeing pictures of Swartruggens in the documentary, it looks like a very small town. How did living there have an effect on your life?
Before I went to Swartruggens, I was actually in an
orphanage and then my Foster parents adopted me, well fostered me and I lived
with them.
This is also depicted in the film “Glenda” really quickly you know, in the beginning as it goes through your life story. It starts off quite quickly and just ends up Bang Bang! This is how this happened and that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to meet you because I thought it was quite fascinating that you starred as yourself in a life story about you.
Laughing….
That I idea for me was kind of interesting, “I’m acting as myself you know, re-enacting events that already happened
And What? I was only twenty something at the time you
know (laughing) I mean how much could have happened in your life at that
stage?!
That’s something I was wondering about. Could all this have happened already? Did it?
Laughing…
Did it really happen? All the events in the film?
Ag, ja not all of it. The thing that didn’t happen the
way it was shown in the film was the way I started dancing. There’s no such
thing as my brother getting into trouble and me stripping to help him. That was
not true. That was because I think the story was a bit boring. In real life I
just loved dancing
I actually spoke to Dirk about it and I said Dirk I know this has to be writers freedom and I remember thinking to myself, you know, as a director, his writer’s freedom went so far, that he killed Glenda in the end!
Laughing… ja exactly, and if you can see that then you
know hey she’s not dead so I wonder what else is not true
It shows also that you have a little bit of a ballet background?
You know, my foster parents did try to let me take
ballet but I was a freedom dancer. Don’t tell me “now you put your foot there
and then you do that I just want to flow. I wanted to just dance. I wanted to
act as well. That’s what I really wanted to do. To be an actress because it
didn’t come my way I just made it happen for myself
Absolutely that’s so evident in your performances I mean I've seen so few obviously. The only ones that I've seen exist in film and in photographs. I came towards those images from a completely different point of view than someone who might have been older than me. I started thinking about your performances in terms of performance art and I wanted to ask you how you felt about that?
Yes, you know I once had a court case and I don’t know
if that was mentioned in the film I cant remember and my drama instructors(I
specialised in drama at teachers college ) were all prepared to watch the show and go
to court and say that it is art.
So I was actually found not guilty and they said its art but then the
state appealed because they couldn’t accept that I was not guilty and I was
found guilty. But you know I must tell you one thing. If you had seen my
performance with my lighting because you couldn’t take my performance and put
it in the sun. as you know lighting and music all interacts. For example I used
to do back bends and things in the strobe lights
Yes!
All you would see was: You’d see me here, and you’d
see me there(hand gestures) What I really wasn’t happy about was when I saw the
shows on the movie I was quite disgusted. I really didn’t like it. You know one
day this movie was on the TV the other day
I remember that I was told about that. It was the censored version?
No it was the overseas version.
Really?
I was so ashamed. I wanted to climb under the. Luckily my husband just looked a little
bit and then he left and I said please lets switch this off. Because as I said
to you when I worked out my show it was with lighting and with the story
flowing. Now if you see it in the bright light of the movies then it just
doesn’t have that sacredness. When I worked out my shows I really thought about
it. Normally it started with the music. I would put the music on and close my
eyes and then I would dance and work out the different stories. I could never
just stand and take off my clothes at that stage. I could never stand on a
platform and just start to you know, take it off. That wasn’t what I was. In my
shows I always came on…not the movie’s shows..I always came on humouristically.
It had to be funny. I’d come on with big bloomers or something and the people
would say “oh no!” And then Id change and take them on this journey and id
always finish funny as well. It’s like a full stop to the story.
I’m so glad you speak about the humour and its something that I definitely got from the essences of your performances. A lot of humour, in a very clever way though and it definitely shows that there was a lot of thought that went into it. Which is why I never looked at it as stripping. I couldn’t possibly see it in that way.
I didn’t think of it that way. I never thought of it
that way. But then as I said, I never even allowed people cameras when I was
doing a show because I said to them the camera catches you out of context and
its not the same. You know, if you want a photograph, ill give you one. So
that’s the only thing I'm not happy about – the movie. You don’t have a
dim light. You know, when I did a show at a place- you really had to look,
although I was in the nude. You don’t see it for long.
Just to speak a little bit more about your use of humour in your performances…Id have to say my favourite performance was the one where you incorporated your puppet. That devil puppet. Tell me about how you came to the idea of using the puppet?
You know this can be traced back to my childhood. When
I was in the orphanage the children used to follow me because I made up
stories. I just made them up. I would just look at a stone and then it would
turn into something…they would follow me and the next day we would continue and
the same with my sister’s kids. So you know that side of me I just loved,
acting in stories and children and then when I was in high school in
Swartruggens, I always collected puppets. It just fascinated me and I remember
for the school I used to put up puppet shows, you know to make money for the
school. They were like a collector’s item that I carried around with me and
then of course having drama at teacher’s college .
That must have made a big impact…
Most definitely. I also had art but I could never draw
which is a pity because I would love to draw. I just admire people who can take
a blank piece of paper and suddenly there’s water on it and their things
growing on it and there’s human beings breathing on it. You know that is such a
gift.
I also wanted to know more specifically, how you came about using the Devil puppet. Why did you choose to use the image of the little devil? For me he became person, the more I watched this performance he definitely becomes like a character and its almost as though he is separate from you body…
Laughing… the naughty little devil. You know, I was
doing children’s parties at the time that movie came out , charging you know
but I always ended up putting all my money back into them. I remember that I
had these shows with the devil and the witch and the pot and the things and the
spiders. I don’t know why but that’s what children stories always seem to be
about you know. Children stories are actually very horrible! (laughing)
Ja like Hansel and Gretel!
Ja that must be the worst one! Cooking people wanting
to cook them, feeding them so you can cook them!(laughing) And I remember once
I had to do a show for Christians and they said please we don’t want a devil,
we don’t want a witch. And I thought “Oh?!”. But when I became a Christian,
Well I was one at sixteen but then I left the Lord, but when I came back I
started to look at them in a different way so ja, I’m not too proud of the
little devil one but you know in my mind it was just a naughty little guy who
was going around where he shouldn’t be going and it was just fun.
In the film I think Dirk implies that this was a reaction to the conservative Afrikaner way of looking at religion especially with the NG Kerk being very important to these small towns depicted in the film
You know, I didn’t sit down and think that. That Devil
came all the way back from when I was in standard six or something. I had it
for years. You know I worked at a
place called de Westerwalt in Bree
Street. When you work in the same place, month in or year in and year out.
You’ve got to change your show. You know I changed my show every single
week so I had to really think, so
whatever I had I used. When I went window shopping or shopping you know, and if
id see a hat or something I liked, the woman at the shop would say ja that’s
very nice. But meanwhile I'm looking at it to put it on my boob or somewhere
else! (laughing)
So
I was always looking for ways to
make the shows interesting, you know I had mannequins carried on to stage as
part of my performance, so whenever you look at something and I think artists
do that.. If you look at a show you’ll get something from that show, you don’t
actually copy it. You can actually be inspired by something and you’re copying
but you’re also putting your own character to it. You put your own stamp on it.
One of the many things that inspired me was ballet
There’s this short part in the film where you actually do this ballet move
I used to dance like that I really did. When I was in the orphanage I used to go into the mielie lands. I was maybe a bit weird but I just loved nature. I think I was just close to God even though I didn’t know him at the time. They have these mielie lands in Potchefstroom and I used to go into the mielie lands and that was my stage. I used to look at dancing even though I didn’t have formal dancing and you know people used to think “Where was I? because I could disappear for a day. Its like now the beach is that to me. It just never is the same never. I don’t think you could ever catch a wave at the same spot. You know, you look at things differently. It’s actually a gift because there’s so much beauty that you don’t have to spend money on and you can be happy with just what you’ve got.
When you peak about escaping into your own world when you danced, you didn’t have any formal training, after watching a lot of your performances, and watching the way you move, its quite reminiscent of traditional African dancing that I’ve seen, I wanted to know if there was an influence or if it just came naturally?
I probably got a number of my dance moves from
watching a bit here, and a bit there. But you know it was actually the music. I
mean the music I used, it moved me, I didn’t even have to move. Just that
music. If I liked the music then I would just dance.
HEARD A SOUND FROM THE BACK DOOR, WANTED TO FIND OUT IF HER
HUSBAND WAS HOME, THEN STARTED SPEAKING ABOUT ONE OF HER marionette PUPPETS
THAT SHE THEN PROCEEDS TO FETCH FROM HER KITCHEN.
(Glenda explains about her puppet)
First of all the reason why he is a clown is because
he is a Christian and he is happy. Christians should be joyful people. He
painted his nose red for the blood of Jesus that died for him and his face is
white because all his sins are washed away and he was given a new life. He dances
when you say verses.
I was working at a Christian school and part of the
syllabus was that the kids had to memorise verses. Every month they had to
memorise verses so it encouraged them to learn it.
So every time the puppet dances, the kids are able to memorise it better. So, does this puppet have a name? did you give him a name?
His name is “Savey” because the lord saved him and at
first he thought he knew everything but now he knows the word of God.
Can you tell me more about Savey’s character?
You can
see he lost his leg in an accident. He wasn’t a good guy.
He wasn’t a good guy?
No he wasn’t.
Does he have a reason or a story behind this?
His story is that he was saved and Jesus loves him as
he is. He doesn’t even have to have a leg because Jesus is his legs for him.
(looks down at Savey and starts having a conversation with him) “Hey
Savey? Jesus loves you! (makes the
puppet walk toward Jedi the dog in a playful manner.) Jedi! Look who’s here!(then
makes Savey fall on the floor) Sometimes he would just collapse like this on
the floor and then he would come alive( controls the puppet and makes him wave
his arms in the air) and then he would be all over the show again.
Wow! So how long did you teach for?
Three years
So you have a diploma in teaching and your major was drama?
Yes drama was my major and I taught senior primary
school. Although the lectures used to ask me why are you in senior primary? You
should be junior. Because I was so good with the little ones but I was also
good with the older ones.
I always see teaching as a kind of performance would you agree?
It is absolutely. You know I can take the knowledge
and really turn it into something fun and the kids will never forget it. But my
only problem with teaching is the red tape around it. I didn’t like the admin.
(laughter) they used to tell me to be quiet with my kids because they had so
much fun.
I can imagine! They must have loved you! I know a couple of students at Michaelis who would love to have a puppet show by you. (laughter)
I recently started wondering whether there was an element of teaching in your stage performances, do you agree? Do you feel that there was some kind of story or message?
You know while I was dancing I wasn’t thinking of a
whole lot of men looking. To me it was an expression of my viewpoint that the
body is so beautiful and sensitive. On stage I was thinking in a private way. I
was actually very much alone there. Like for example, how important sexual
growth is. In my mind it was never ugly but as I said to you now when I saw
that movie I thought no you don’t do that in public. I always used to say to my
daughter you know, I did it with the right motives. My heart was in the right
place and I was the most conservative person around even though I was taking my
clothes off on stage. But then that movie was on the other day and I said to
her you know I always say it was okay what I did but I'm telling you now it was
not okay.
Really?
Ja. If you love the Lord, your body belongs to him and
its not…it’s not right. You don’t do that. You see I got away with it because I
always said I'm playing the part and I'm acting because really the person who
came off that stage would never take her clothes off in front of nobody. So I
had to be in my little story to perform but don’t- don’t think you could come
near me when that show is over
When the curtains close its done…
Ja, if you get onto the stage you play a part you
know. You’re an actress. You’re not that person. But you do draw from what is
inside you. From what you think. What you want to be or what you think you can
be.
That’s why I loved that one line that I heard you say in the last documentary- you say “I play the part of a girl. And that girl is sexy!”
(Laughter)
The next question would have to be about Oupa, the co-star on stage. I wanted to ask you if he was just a prop like the puppets were?
He was only a prop. Nothing else but a prop.
How did you come up with the idea of using a large snake in your act?
My younger brother collected snakes as boys sometimes
do. In fact I still have that sowing basket that I had my first snake in. One
day I borrowed one of his little snakes and got such a reaction from people
when I took it out of the basket. People were going "Ooooh!" And I
thought I can get bigger ones than that. And bigger "Ooohs!" The
snake only used to come out for a short while. It was an association with the
name or a product I was selling that people remembered. If they forgot my name
they would say oh that’s the lady with the snake you know.
That’s usually what I've heard and then I get frustrated because I think she was much more than that.
It’s always clever to have such an association. It’s
just like any business. They try to get something that people will remember.
Ja absolutely and now I’m reminded of the story you told in the documentary where you said Oupa died once in the car on the way to your performance. I was wondering, did you ever see your snakes as pets?
They were not pets at all. Anyone who tells me a snake
is a pet is lying because they don’t even get to know you they cold blooded.
They never come up to you when you call them!(laughter) You work around what
the animal does. The reptile does. If you hold your hand out, they’ll probably
come up to it because they just move from place to place. For them it’s like
climbing a tree. So sometimes you’re lucky, you open the basket and then he
comes out because he wants to get out. Then you hold your hand out and he
actually comes up to your hand. Then people think Oh she actually trained the
snake!
But meanwhile you actually just had a feel for that hey?
No , I used to lock him up and feed him and make sure
that he was well taken care of but I never used to say Good morning my little
snake. No! (Laughs)
Ja Oupa, lets go for a walk together! (laughs)But in contrast to the humour in your acts, I always thought that there was an innocence, an underlying in your act- there was also a lot of danger, I felt with the snake and at times when you performed with fire. You definitely could have gotten hurt quite a few times
I think the most dangerous element to the whole thing
is when I look back …
(JEDI BITES INTO THE AIR AND CATCHES A FLY) My dog ate a fly!!(laughs) Jedi you’ve
been trying that for years! You got it! She always misses! Oh yes, the most
dangerous thing..
You know what I used to do for years… um I didn’t
drive at that time, so people fetched me. I’d have four shows a night.
Really? That’s quite a lot.
Yes! Well after my show somebody had to fetch me and
take me to the place I am next, and he’ll fetch me there and then somebody
would have to fetch me at the other place. I was driven by people you know, at
bachelor parties and you that for me is really proof of how god’s hand was over
me covering me. How could I never have even come close to being raped? How is
it possible, that for all those years, every person that took me home was
always sober always respected me, never tried anything with me. I promise you
the angles were with me. I was so naïve. I didn’t even think of the danger. Now
that I think back I think, it couldn’t have been possible. How could I never
have gotten into trouble? And I know why because prayers were covering me
because even though if you give your life to the Lord later in life, you are
his child the day you are born. He will be with you all the way.
I think he was definitely with you after those times that you were bitten by your snake. I saw photographs of how your face looked. It must have been painful. That was the one thing that shocked me and at the same time I had an incredible amount of respect for. For me, I think it is quite brave to put a snake’s head in your mouth. To put this dangerous reptile in your mouth was quite a hectic part of the performance wouldn’t you say?
It wasn’t really that brave. Most of them were really
placid so if I thought they were going to bite me I don’t think I would have
put them in my mouth. You see a lot of…what do you call it maybe its not art. A
lot of entertainment is making people think that something is dangerous or
think this or that but actually you’re okay. Just being different. Being
different. I think that’s what it was all about that I was very different to
what was going around then. But you know even when I went to work in England, I
was different to what was going around there as well. As I said to you I could
never just stand on a stage and just take off my clothes. If there wasn’t an
act involved I wouldn’t do it.
I remember reading about the chance that you could’ve gone into Television at one stage. How was that going to happen?
I think I was going to be but then they turned me down
you know because of the stigma to me. I was like not good news! (big laugh)
Ja that’s the biggest thing hey? That stigma…
Ja in the old South Africa…(shakes her head)
It was within that stigma that I found my fascination. Looking at your performances and then reading articles in the newspaper archives made me realise that this was definitely more than just stripping.
I could never just have stripped. That would be the
last thing that would be on my mind at that time. You know, maybe I was naïve
but I really believed that it was art. You know whatever I do I always put my
whole heart into it. Whether it’s a puppet show or if you ask me to do
something I've got to go all the way out.
I’ve got to really give everything. Even while I was teaching. I think I
put all my money back into my job you know. I gave everything to the kids.
Those kids were my life. I think with whatever I do I like to walk that extra
mile.
So when did you stop performing?
Okay, now I have to think...when did I stop? Well,
Kimmy was born in 1982, and I think I stopped maybe in 1980. I came back from
London so JA I think it was 1980.
And by that time was there still a hype around your performances or did it sort of die down after a while.
I think it died down but I don’t know because when I
cam back I packed up. I didn’t do any more dancing. So ja that was it. It was
over.
I remember you saying that you didn’t feel the magic anymore? That it wasn’t the same?
I was getting older and it just wasn’t the same
anymore and then I wanted a child and a lot of things changed after that. But
if you’re an artist you’ll never keep it in. it will come out in a different
form. You will always be overflowing and bubbly with something that’s creative
you can pore your love into and entertain. Speaking to an artist I know that I
can say that to you. If they took your painting away, you’d be doing something
else. You would always find a way to express yourself.
While you were performing in the seventies, did you always see yourself as an artist? Were you adamant about that?
Oh yes I did. I definitely did.
That’s great especially after an artist like Professor Walter Batiss testified for you in court, which I thought, was amazing
He came and watched my show.
Did he come and speak to you at all?
Yes, I actually went to go and visit him on his farm.
Wonderful!
I actually posed for him. It was very strange because
you pose in the nude but he uses you in a nature painting. He looks at a
woman’s breasts and he paints hills and mountains. Which to me was beautiful!
The thing is , he was actually saying what I was trying to say. A woman’s body
is nature. It’s beautiful. But as I said I know now that a woman’s body is
beautiful but it’s meant for a husband its not meant to show to the whole South
Africa! If I had stayed with God and had the relationship with Jesus that I
have now, I would never have done that and I'm very curious to think where my
life could have gone. Its one regret I have because I just wish I could have
known what He would have decided to do with my young life. What a privilege it
would have been to say here I am lord! Use me and given my youth to Him.
That’s what I would have wanted to do. Never mind
having fun on a stage. I’m sure I could’ve done even that in a different
direction again. So that’s a regret I have but then the more you get to know
the Lord you know that nothing is wasted because He knew what you were going to
do and you don’t ever shock Him. He says we mustn’t look at back and live in he
past except I always say the past is like old boxes you take out and the only
time I would take out the boxes would be to stand on top of them to glorify
Him. Sometimes people will listen to you because of your past. For example once
I went to see a lady and she wouldn’t open the gate but by the time my program
was on the television, she let me in because she recognised me and we could
talk about God.
God knows what you are going to do before you are born
and He’s going to use everything you picked up along the way. When he takes
you, you are going to use what happened to you. There’s nothing bad or nothing
sad that He doesn’t turn into joy and into the right thing. If I had my life over,
I always said I’d do it again, I wont do it again, Id say Lord here I am now
this time you keep me on Your track!
We think He’s there to spoil your fun, He’s not. He would’ve taken the
same gift and it would’ve exploded into a way of making things beautiful
Do you look back at those shows and think that they weren’t maybe as beautiful as the ideal that you have about what beauty is to you now?
Ja sometimes. You see, because of knowing God I know
that I could have used the same talent in a different way and as I said He knew
I was going to do what I did. And I honestly prayed before every show Please
let the show be good. It was so important to me. Its important for you as an
artist and at the end of the day its almost for yourself hey? If I did a show and
people said “you were good” and I didn’t think I was good just leave me alone
you know. I don’t want to hear what you’re saying. But if I think I was good
then I think yes I felt good. We depend on how good we are and how well we
perform
And using or rather speaking about religion or using Biblical references, how do you feel about the fact that there was a lot of symboblogy I mean not just the Devil puppet but with the snake and also the Adam and Eve concept as well because of the apple and the snake and tree. I thought that was a great performance because it made you feel the uncomfortable feeling of being naked in public and that is what your Eve shows after she takes a bite out of this apple. You sort of run off stage and cover yourself. How did you come about putting that into the performance. Is it something that you really thought about ?
Yes I really thought about it because basically it’s
the truth.
I think that this performance can’t be seen as blasphemous in any way and in terms of performance it was really interesting. What are your thoughts on this performance?
I never deliberately wanted to offend the Lord. You
know when I did things like that I actually did feel like an actress. I
actually at that moment believed that I was Eve and this was really happening
and I really felt ashamed.
So if you look back at your performances do you feel like there’s anything that could have been different in the time that you were performing could have changed the stigma. Was it something that could only exist within that time period. During the 1970’s with the censorship laws and things like that
It doesn’t matter if there weren’t any censorship
laws. I made it in London, my show was totally unique in London. Nobody had a
show like that. If I was in those circumstances now, I would work out a show
and be successful too. When you do something and your heart is in it and you do
it with your heart. I mean I went on stage I loved my audience. That was the
first thing I would notice when I walked out on stage. That’s what I didn’t
like in London because I was in a big theatre. With that lighting it felt like
I was performing to myself. But even there. There was no rules there and I was
the main performer tin the theatre at the time I was the main artist so it was
not because of that
That’s one of the things I was always wondering about, whether it was because of the fact that you went against the grain, whether that was the reason for your success. Performing in these small dorpies like Goudstad and Volksrust and giving people a taste of something that was unfamiliar and actually against the law at the time.
I suppose my next question would be how you started travelling with your show in South Africa?
Believe me I hate travelling. I don’t travel. I always
used to make my price very high. The idea was to put them off. At that time Id
ask R500 and that was really a lot of money at the time. R500 would be like
R5000 today. I was always aware that in that kind of job you can only work so
long but if the money was there I did do it for the money as well. If I did a
performance and I thought it was lousy I would easily not take the people’s
money. I wanted to give them something in return.
Could you tell me about some of the clubs that you performed at in Johannesburg permanently?
I don’t think they exist anymore. I know the President
Hotel was one there was a club there and there was a club called the Maricage.
I think that must still be there in Hillbrow. The one in Bree road was called
De Westerwalt. I’m sure that’s not there either. That was the one I worked in
for a long time.
When I asked you on the phone about the old newspaper clippings and photographs, you mentioned that you didn’t have them anymore. Is there a reason why you don’t keep them anymore?
They just don’t interest me, you know that so boring
even interviewing, I’m talking about something that is over. I’ve got a life.
Besides being older now. My life is so different. I can’t relate to that
person.
Is she a different person?
Like I said to my daughter, I told her about you
coming, and you’re coming to interview me. I then I said wait… Oh no, you’re
actually coming to interview Glenda Kemp. I don’t know what she’s going to
do!(laughs)
Well, I’m very happy Glenda Kemp decided to allow me to come and interview her.
Like I said to you, the only reason for me to give
interviews, there’s no publicity in it, even with those television programs. Id
much rather just get on with my life here. The only reason why I would do it is
to witness for God. Id also like to say to young people that its possible to
practice a gift without taking your clothes off. If I could go back I would
have wanted to start a performance group to praise the lord and we would’ve
travelled and spread the Word. You know, a good job.
I think you did a very good job anyway! (laughing)
Shocking people?!(laughing)